Building Sustainable Communities

[00:00:00] John Moore: Welcome to the Mother Earth News and Friends podcast.

[00:00:15] Our planet looks a lot different than it did even a few decades ago. How can we move into the future and find ways to live well while also valuing the Earth and people? In this episode, podcast team member Kenny Coogan chats with climate scientist Eloisa Lewis about her mission to help build sustainable communities as well as sustainable solutions for our changing world. This is Mother Earth News.

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What Does “Permaculture Society” mean?

[00:01:22] Kenny Coogan: Good day everyone, and we appreciate you for joining us on another exciting Mother Earth News and Friends podcast. I am Kenny Coogan and joining me is Eloisa Lewis, a climate scientist out to rebuild resilient permaculture communities one at a time.

[00:01:40] At Mother Earth News for 50 years and counting, we have been dedicated to conserving our planet’s natural resources, while helping you conserve your financial resources. Today we are going to learn about sustainable solutions for our changing planet.

[00:01:58] Eloisa Lewis, a child of [00:02:00] an illegal Mexican immigrant, has spent the past decade living in urban centers on farms, homesteads, artists residencies, eco villages, commune schools, tiny houses, squats, and tents, conducting research and helping build permaculture societies. She integrates the landscapes and people in a sustainable way.

[00:02:21] Welcome to the podcast, Eloisa.

[00:02:24] Eloisa Lewis: Thank you so much.

[00:02:25] Kenny Coogan: We’re excited to have you. For our listeners, can you tell us what do you consider a permaculture society? Our readers are probably familiar with permaculture, but what do you mean by “permaculture society”?

[00:02:40] Eloisa Lewis: So there’s definitely, maybe what people are more familiar with, is kind of just doing permaculture in your own property or going to visit a permaculture demonstration site. Maybe if they are interested in the permaculture community, maybe that means like foraging or rewilding. [00:03:00] For other people it might mean being a tree sitter or being, uh, on the front lines of environmental movements.

[00:03:08] So a permaculture society is kind of looking at all these elements as an integrated, connected system of people and beliefs as, as well as lifestyle. And also then thinking about really how can we utilize permaculture and permaculture technology, which is basically technology that fits within sustainable futures and circular economies in a non-toxic, non, non, not too risky and dangerous way, and trying to take what we do know to the next level so that we can have better public transportation systems and better political economic systems. As well as things like, you know, I really like to imagine what it could be to produce the most abundant agricultural civilization that the world has [00:04:00] ever seen. I’d re, that’s something that makes me so curious and makes me really wanna work with other kind of dedicated and curious and interested self-motivated people like myself to try and see what would it be like to design for like a whole city or nation state, or again, what would it be like to design with other designers, with other permaculture folks and climate scientists, marine biologists, mycologists such, such as that, as well as wellness instructors and healers of different modalities. Like what would it be like when we link up and start to imagine what our civilization or society might be like?

[00:04:38] And that’s really what I mean, and what I’m helping doing.

Measuring Sustainability: Who Are Sustainable Communities For?

[00:04:42] Kenny Coogan: Very good. And how do you define sustainability? Or how do you measure it?

[00:04:48] Eloisa Lewis: Yes. Okay, cool. Well, I just got asked this question recently, last month in an interview that just came out and that was with Politico. So anyone listening can go check that out.

[00:04:57] And what I said was, [00:05:00] basically that sustainability is about longevity. So for me, it means the longer that the system can stay in place, like if I build something like a water system for a family or for a city, I want that water system to be so disaster resilient and so resilient to all the environmental changes that are inevitable in this living, breathing planet that it’s something you might imagine not touching and not messing with for many generations or only intermittently with throughout a lifetime. Um, so that’s what I really think of as longevity when I think of the kind of products I wanna help design for my clients.

[00:05:36] Kenny Coogan: Why are you so passionate about sustainability? Like, what is, what’s the driving force?

[00:05:43] Eloisa Lewis: My gosh. It’s incredible how sustainability is linked to our wellness and our regeneration. Like these really slow, careful ancient systems. Plus, you know, modern technology and awareness. When we put that together, we have the most luxurious kind of [00:06:00] lifestyles that we can live, and I just want everyone to live in the, just the luxury of, you know, clean water filtered by natural plants and minerals around them, and hot springs and cold water baths are accessible. You can go to spas to access those things, or pay to access private lands that have them. Or you can, you know, have these systems for your community that are built out that are going to be organic, non-toxic, and helping promote the biodiversity.

[00:06:27] But again, also kind of just like luxurious and abundant. And I think that is what is makes me passionate is the idea that. Wow. We can regenerate ourselves mentally and physically. We can provide medicine to ourselves throughout however long our lifespans are on this planet, but really enjoy being here while we are here, take advantage of it, because we’ve definitely like never been here in this moment before and, uh, we’ll never be again. So I think it’s very interesting. I love how globalized the world is and that I think the more we reach and connect on a global level and on a [00:07:00] local level, it’s the same truth that emerges, which is that we’re all part of this big human family. And so of course, like in recognizing I’m a part of this human family and I want us to live good healthy lives that are, um, sustainable for ourselves and for each other, it just keeps me really focused on the, the kind of best of the best to obtain that. And that’s definitely through permaculture technology.

[00:07:27] Kenny Coogan: And speaking of family, why do, or why is it important for you to highlight the fact that you’re the child of a illegal Mexican immigrant? So the reason why I said that was because it was in your, you know, press release and your bio. So I, I was wondering like, why do you wanna share that, and how do you think that’s influenced your view on sustainability?

[00:07:50] Eloisa Lewis: Well, so as recognized by the UN Climate Agreement, decolonization is one of the top solutions to climate change. And, um, so it’s been recognized not [00:08:00] only by the UN but by so many other groups. And so when I started my work in decolonization, um, many people it rightfully wanted to ask me like, what right do you have to speak in this subject, especially being like a light-skinned person benefiting from white privilege and growing up in white culture. And so I was happy to explain that basically colonization affected me from the moment that I was born because, and of course, my lineage as well, because borders themselves are products of colonized nation states and decolonized nation states do not have strict borders that restrict movement across them.

Sustainable Community Development Aids Resiliency

[00:08:41] Kenny Coogan: With degree certifications from Harvard and St. Andrews, Eloisa’s passion for the environment has become her business, and she and her partners work with organizations all over the world to rebuild their internal and external structures to be regenerative environments that boost biodiversity [00:09:00] and that helps with resiliency.

[00:09:02] So can you talk about how biodiversity aids resiliency in disasters?

[00:09:09] Eloisa Lewis: Absolutely. So in so many sectors this applies, but first of all, just thinking about like the health and wellness supplement industry that’s booming open right now. Um, when we think about what these health and wellness supplements are for, for our mental health, for our physical health, for curing hair loss, for carrying liver disease, whatever it is. Or for at least treat, managing it, helping treat it. That comes from biodiversity and genetic diversity. These solutions that emerge in plants or out in complex organic structures or however they’re coming through the organic structures, they’re coming because these different species are free to basically grow in different ways and we, we examine their genetics, we examine what they’re providing, and we are able to then reap the benefit of their, of their genetics [00:10:00] through that. And, and then further, these species that we are relying on for, let’s say, something that goes into a skin aging lotion or, uh, dietary supplement. Like those things rely on either sustainable farming, sustainable agriculture, or a rich environment in which to grow. And all like rich environments and all the most sustainable agriculture that’s out there is permaculture agriculture, which is promoting, again, biodiversity on the highest level. There’s this aspect of chaos that living systems need in order to be resilient at all and to create solutions.

[00:10:39] So that’s the kind of fascinating thing about the human species is that we have removed a lot of biodiversity and a lot of the chaos from our lives in order to kind of catch a breath and understand what is it to be human on this planet. But in doing that and in removing ourselves from too many germs and from too many exposures and from too much chaos, we’ve [00:11:00] also weakened our immune systems and bodies against the natural pathogens, viruses, and kind of just natural chaos that goes on that creates resilient genetics. So you can’t cre have resilient genetics emerge in a, in the wilderness without there being that contrast of, uh, other species competing naturally in the same space.

A Call for Policy Changes Promoting Biodiversity

[00:11:23] Kenny Coogan: Speaking of sustainable agriculture and farming, what are some immediate policy changes that you would like to see made at the local or global level?

[00:11:35] Eloisa Lewis: Oh, okay. Well, as far as yeah, sustainable agriculture goes, I would guess policies. Um, I think that there should be definitely a certain amount of the, this, of every major metropolitan city in every nation state, like the largest metropolitan centers should have land that is allocated back to local agriculture and giving, like, giving out grants and basically shutting [00:12:00] streets to replace streets with soil and sustainable agriculture so that people don’t have to travel even, you know, they say farm to table. Well, why not bring the farm to the front door and the back door and work from that? But, uh, I just wanted to finish about biodiversity cuz that was really just the beginning of the biodiversity.

[00:12:19] Biodiversity also allows, again, the water to filter properly so that we have the organisms, the right microorganisms in the soil and minerals in the soil to naturally filter the rainwater and the things like oil spills and toxins that are from an industrial toxins and mining need to get filtered in the, through the nature and in our aquifers. And that only happens again when we have the everything in balance with the insects, the microorganisms, the algae, the mushrooms, the trees, and, and once something starts ca cascading, everything starts to cascade into, into disaster. So water and food stability are [00:13:00] reliant for biodiversity.

[00:13:00] And of course then the air is the third most important thing where we’re also filtering then the, the greenhouse gases out of the air, which is really what climate science is focused on is the, the project of drawing down atmospheric greenhouse gases and returning them from gas state to solid state.

[00:13:19] And so yeah, all this policy about sustainable agriculture relates directly to filtering water and cleaning the air as well. So when I say like, let’s bring the food right to our front door. It’s not just bringing the food to our front door. We’re gonna create a microclimate around us that’s going to filter our air, remove, I mean, people buy air filters at Costco every day. But what about one that can, isn’t gonna break, one that’s gonna last for seven generations, you know, something that doesn’t cost money after initial investment, and then your kids are gonna benefit from having that clean air by the, the plants filtering it instead of some, uh, industrial machine that is bound to break, need repair, cost money, [00:14:00] maintenance. Again, we’re thinking sustainability. We’re thinking longevity. A lot of the devices that we use in our current industrial, uh, kind of at the end of this last industrial revolution, they’re very maintenance heavy. And I think that it’s not that nothing should be maintenance heavy, but we definitely need to pick our battles about what we’re going to really maintain and, um, make, free up more time for ourselves to have really rich, fun interactive communities and lives.

Sustainable Communities Combat Food Waste

[00:14:27] Kenny Coogan: I have a master’s degree in global sustainability with a concentration in food sustainability and security. And when you’re talking, I’m thinking about a couple months ago, I think it was the December/January MOTHER EARTH NEWS magazine issue. Um, it talked about in Minnesota, they just passed a law that allows or encourages schools, like K through 12 schools, to get more of their food locally.

[00:14:56] Eloisa Lewis: Amazing.

[00:14:57] Kenny Coogan: And it’s like, we could be [00:15:00] doing that ev. We could be implementing that everywhere. And then another thing that I was thinking about a few years ago, France created a law where grocery stores and restaurants had to donate their about-to-be-expired or like bruised or damaged food to food pantries and the homeless.

[00:15:18] And it’s like, that’s like a no-brainer. That should be the law everywhere.

[00:15:23] Eloisa Lewis: Oh, yeah. I think it should be illegal not to compost, right? Like I’m like, I’m totally here for the circular economy. And people don’t understand that it’s actually like a travesty. Like when I, I just, I’m here on at my friend’s house in Virginia and I just was helping them set up their compost pile on site. And it was the most beautiful thing to see the deer come eating from the compost pile because that’s actually a sign that we’re in abundance. We’re supporting other animals in the ecosystem that need food and um, and that that’s not something, that’s not a pest. The deer was not a pest. We’re having like this new relationship with animals around us, so the [00:16:00] birds and things like that to welcome them in.

[00:16:02] And this is like a really fun transition for a lot of people, even. Even that concept that like, you know, sometimes our parents or society has told us something is incorrect, and then getting to live in the new paradigm where we get to enjoy just that, that further biodiversity as well and inviting that biodiversity into, yeah, like our communities. I want to make composting, absolutely, like you get a fine if you’re not composting your food somewhere, um, which is gonna immediately create businesses, right? I mean, we love creating businesses. Everybody wants meaningful work. And so then there’s that. I also believe that single use plastic is just something also that has to basically be fined. You have to have huge fines for, um, putting products in single-use plastic and just make consumers deal with, you know, people are worried about upsetting the status quo and the consumers. I’m far more worried about an extinction event than, uh, you [00:17:00] know, rattling the consumers, uh, especially considering people are aware and ready for change. People know change has to happen and it’s not gonna be just electrical cars. So, okay. What else? And then we start thinking about these details about, um, yes, definitely paper straws. Yes, definitely, let’s not have takeout carriers and plastic anymore and, um, let’s recycle that plastic into things that are gonna be for longevity. Maybe bricks for houses or something else that’s, um, gonna store it in a larger pile instead of like all, all the microplastics dispersing across the landscape.

[00:17:40] Kenny Coogan: Yeah. In addition to, uh, fines or fees, there should also be incentives for people who recycle and compost. And I also, uh, visited a friend also in Virginia, near Washington DC, and we had some store bought eggs. And then, you know, we made our coffee [00:18:00] and then they threw away the coffee grounds and the eggshells. And I, because they do live in a HOA in a little cul-de-sac. And they didn’t even think, you know, they’re also around, they’re like mid thirties, but they had never even thought, oh, we should be composting this. You know, we could have a kitchen compost, we could do it in the backyard. And they have, um.

[00:18:23] Eloisa Lewis: And they can sell compost. I mean, compost is a commodity, like organic compost or whatever. Compost is a commodity and companies need it, or, or landscapers or other people need it. Um, and I think that that market is emerging, like I think we’re in the moment of that market becoming self-aware, like the soil marketplace and stuff like that in many ways, or at least maybe not self-aware, but emerging into pop culture.

[00:18:46] Because like for example, I’m gonna design a festival in Montreal for, it’s gonna be a climate uh, science festival, essentially that my company is gonna sponsor in Montreal this September. And one of the first things that [00:19:00] we’re interested in securing is, uh, a partnership with a company that can do Humanure for the festival, because we need to introduce that as one of the features of the festival like, okay, everyone, let’s get comfortable with it. Let’s not just get comfortable with it. You know, me, I’m 10 years into like being excited about compost toilets. So like I want people to feel the way I do about them, where it’s actually, that’s the luxury. Like people think that modern plumbing is like the luxury and like the pinnacle of human society, but it’s actually just a complete waste of energy and resources and water and, um, probably causing diseases. Absolutely. Definitely.

[00:19:36] I mean, speaking of Montreal, I know that they might, they might still be pouring their sewage into the Lawrence River. Montreal’s an island surrounded by rivers and they’re prob I, I researched that a few years ago. I think it was three years ago. I was looking into it and they had been pouring their sewage into their, river, which is just unbelievable to me, considering, you know, the effect on the ecology with all of the medication, [00:20:00] estrogen, um, steroids, things like that, that people are digesting and processing out and not having a more viable way to basically filter that and clean that waste before returning it to the watershed supply. Um, but again, this is just like, you know, we all heard about it or many of us heard about it growing up, that like in London, they used to throw their shit into the street out the window and into the River Thames. And it just feels very similar to me. I feel like in some ways we’ve advanced, but in some ways we’ve forgotten, um, that we, we just have gotten ahead of ourselves maybe? A little bit?

Crop Biodiversity and Seasonality

[00:20:40] Kenny Coogan: And speaking of like contaminating water with, uh, prescription drugs, if you have a lot of biodiversity in your crops, you probably can use or you can limit or not use at all pesticides or herbicides because you have so many things that the predatory insects are preying [00:21:00] on because that also is running down into the waterways.

[00:21:03] Eloisa Lewis: Exactly. Oh my gosh. Pesticides, like, I think it is a, you know, people talk about, we’ve been having a couple years of public health crisis. I think it’s a public health crisis we’re not all eating organic. Right? Like that’s for me, for me, I get health, uh, I feel violated by the government when I recognize, um, who’s been subsidied, what farms have been subsidied, and what programs have been subsidied, including all these pesticide groups and realizing that they’re basically wreaking ecological warfare on us in the same way dropping Agent Orange on Vietnam or something like that. It’s literally warfare dropping. But they of course, you know, whoever wants to say, who knew what is out of the question. I’m just saying, I’m not trying to hold anyone accountable anymore even. I’m just trying to change it. I’m like, okay, well whoever is responsible, you know, fine. But regardless, let’s make sure that [00:22:00] every uh, citizen of this nation state is a and beyond is able to access non-toxic food again. Simple.

[00:22:10] Kenny Coogan: Where do you see, uh, seasonal eating in the equation? Because right now everybody wants an avocado every day of the year, or they want, you know, a pineapple. Do you, do you think that’s really important if we’re eating seasonally rather than we’re an, we anticipate?

[00:22:29] Eloisa Lewis: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it’s culturally significant and I think that it is important, and I think that the, once we restore ourselves to those rhythms of the, the plants and recognize that they have a natural time when they um, are responding to the wilderness and to the seasons they’re going to, like, we can, of course, I think that people, if you can grow, I was, again, I was in Canada and in a greenhouse, they could grow mangoes up there. So Canadian mangoes are now a thing. They’re [00:23:00] tiny, but they’re delicious. So if you can find a way to do something again sustainably like you have a greenhouse setup or something like that, then that’s fine. But bringing in mangoes from Thailand or Costa Rica all year round is just the absolute waste of resources and totally missing the point of what it is to be connected to our food.

[00:23:22] And also, um, uh, so I, another project that we have in incubation is called Kitchen Lotus. And, um, sometime in, during 2023, we’re gonna release that. And that actually does focus on, it’s a monthly food box, a monthly organic food box, and it has a calendar inside of it, an educational materials, and it is in line with the seasons.

[00:23:43] So people who do wanna start practicing eating like seasonally, but don’t necessarily have the time or the resources to educate themselves can opt in to either just buy our calendar and learn from that, or get the calendar and the food boxes and start getting into these natural rhythms where we pull from cultures all over the [00:24:00] world to explain why this food is, has a cultural significance at a certain time of year. And also that it has, uh, a significance to our health at a certain time of year because often, these, um, immune boosting root vegetables, which, um, are harvested in the winter are the things that heat us up and cure our illnesses in the winter as well. So there’s these kind of synchronicities that, um, we start to observe when we do return to that seasonal eating.

[00:24:27] And yeah, I totally see, uh, an importance and, and a future for it as we do all return closer and closer to our food medicine.

[00:24:36] Kenny Coogan: So I live in Florida and one of like the top 10, uh, crops that we produce, of course are oranges, but also strawberries. And it makes me so sad when I go to the grocery store and they have oranges and strawberries from like a South American country or California, and the farm right down the road has 50 acres of strawberries or oranges. It, [00:25:00] it doesn’t make sense that they’re shipping halfway around the world when I can access that food for most of the year from a local farm.

[00:25:09] Eloisa Lewis: Yeah, I agree. I think that there should be natural limitations. I mean, when I was in Arizona last, which is where I’m from, I do, I live, um, on a property with one of my good friends and my best friends, uh, who grew up in like the same neighborhood as I did. And he is a local food expert and local watershed expert in Tucson, Arizona. So when I’m living with him, we are absolutely trying to eat only food not only growing in Arizona, but growing specifically around our neighborhood. And we’re trying to bring all of our, and yes, does that limit us? Absolutely. We’re not eating, you know, Japanese pickled plums. Um, but we are, and, and it’s not that there’s anything wrong with that. If you can, again, maybe from California, since you could grow maybe a Japanese plum tree there, but being conscious and being, and being limiting can actually be good, right?

[00:25:59] [00:26:00] Like, we can think about anything in excess. We think about binge eating, we think about binge watching tv. Well, what about, you’ve been binge consuming. You’ve just been consuming because things are available, but not because it’s actually good for you. Um, and thinking about that again with our food and thinking about how, how can we place restrictions on consumers and producers so that these marketplaces are actually reflecting what’s healthy for us without being, you know, so restrictive that people feel like they’re totally, they have like all the life and colors sucked out of their reality.

[00:26:32] Um, we don’t want it to be like that. We want it to be like fun and biodiverse, but then that’s the thing is like, okay, if you wanna see, um, Japanese plums in the south, somewhere in the southwestern U.S., then talk to a farm in California who’s within a bi only a bio region away instead of an ocean away and only a small, a much smaller transportation distance and try and make a partnership with them to produce this, the this thing that you’re trying to grow [00:27:00] that’s like some kind of a foreign genetic.

[00:27:02] Cuz I’m not against um, plants and seeds traveling around the world. Um, what I’m against is like the food supply systems that are reliant, that are set up that, like you said, that we’re gonna have oranges from Mexico rotting in Florida grocery stores, and then not being composted to to boot. It’s kind of this cascade of disasters when you look at it, but it looks so innocuous and so innocent um, from, from a perspective of not knowing actually the consequences of these actions.

What’s Stopping Sustainable Community Development?

[00:27:34] Kenny Coogan: If you could narrow it down, could you name like the single biggest problem facing a climate smart future?

[00:27:42] Eloisa Lewis: Oh my gosh. Imagination probably, I feel like, because I feel that that’s my number one like thing that I come up against as a scientist, is just being like, I actually know what I’ve done and proven, you know, over the last decade, including all the people that are my colleagues and cohorts and [00:28:00] scientists of the last hundred years working in thermodynamics, physics, and astrobiology.

[00:28:04] We’re a huge community and we’ve done a, we’ve poured our lives into this work. And so for me it’s like, it’s very clear the evidence is there about exactly how abundant agriculture can be and how, um, abundant nature is when it’s basically respected and not exploited. And people have a hard time imagining that the world can be so much better than it is right now.

[00:28:26] And I think that’s what’s funny to me, is not that I want people to think of a more restricted apocalyptic society, but instead a society where we have more free time, we have less work hours in a day because we have more, because we have a standard of living that allows us to take a siesta, to spend half of the day farming our own food or farming our local community garden or whatever, and more time breathing in the fresh air and relaxing. Um, because that’s what nature provides. Again, once we just take care of it a little bit [00:29:00] better, it provides back for us tenfold and, and more.

[00:29:04] Kenny Coogan: You are reminding me of two other podcasts. One is from, uh, Dr. Temple Grandin, and the other one is from Dr. T.H. Culhane, and I’m gonna combine kind of their ideas.

[00:29:17] City planners should be talking to people like you and other climate savvy people, because why isn’t every building in a city, why don’t they have a rooftop garden and then they sell the produce on the first floor? Or to the residents who live in floors two through five? And I, I imagine, because I’m from Niagara Falls, New York, and I understand it’s snowy there for eight months of the year, but then you get these bumper crops and you can grow so much, you know, from May through September, and then you can , and then you can preserve the food. And yeah, I’m definitely against all that food waste. Like 30% of all food is wasted or it, if it looks ugly, it’s [00:30:00] thrown away.

[00:30:00] But I was a agriculture middle school teacher, and when my kids were gardening on the property of the school, they didn’t care the shape of the tomato or they didn’t care the blemish because they grew it. They had, um, you know, they were connected to the food and they were so proud of it, so they were just more invested.

[00:30:21] Eloisa Lewis: Yeah. And I would feel a lot less bad about food waste if it was actually going into the soil and if it was going from these restaurants. Cause maybe there’s some cer, certain legal rules that people, you know, have to respect like a hospital or something where they’re like, well we can’t just give our food to homeless people because you know, there’s these rules, contamination, potentially. Stuff like that. And I’m like, okay, well there has to be some way where this can be turned into industrial soil or heated up hot enough that it can be, um, sanitized through composting. So I do, I do think that there has to be, there are solutions. Every time that someone comes to me with a problem, [00:31:00] I, that’s why imagination is so important. We have to find a way around every problem to a solution, that’s just like how water flows.

[00:31:07] Kenny Coogan: That was a great answer. We’re gonna take a quick break in our conversation to hear a word from our sponsor, and when we return, we will learn how people can change their lifestyle to adapt to the changing climate and economy.

Get Inspired by the Mother Earth News Bookstore

[00:31:24] Jessica Mitchell: Books are a fantastic way to learn about rural and sustainable lifestyles and so much more at your own pace. The MOTHER EARTH NEWS Bookstore carries hundreds of volumes to help you learn about composting, seed saving, poultry, brewing, cooking, baking, and so much more. Enjoy perusing titles and getting inspired at www.MotherEarthNews.com/Store.

[00:31:55] John Moore: And now back to our episode with Eloisa Lewis, [00:32:00]

The Economics of Resilient Permaculture Communities

[00:32:00] Kenny Coogan: a climate scientist to rebuild a resilient permaculture communities one at a time. So, Eloisa, what does the future of economics look like according to your estimate? What are you, what are you envisioning?

[00:32:14] Eloisa Lewis: Yeah, this is so much fun. So I run an economic school with William Padilla-Brown, who people might know from the Netflix series “Fantastic Fungi”. And um, so yeah, so William is great. He’s a mycologist and we run this, this economic school. He talks about soil. So he is coming from a microscopic perspective and I talk about terraforming, which is from the macroscopic astrobiology perspective, but we’re both converging on the same set of solutions.

[00:32:42] And so the ideas around what economics will look like in the future is that it’s going to, economics itself will be more diverse than it is now. Like already we have new markets emerging, like in the blockchain, um, sector, so. We already have, you know, we have fiat currency, which is backed by, uh, [00:33:00] governments and banks, and we have, uh, blockchain, which is now operating in a different way and creating valuation in a completely different way.

[00:33:07] And so, and then I also like the idea of trade economies and gift economies, which basically remove money from the equation entirely and just have direct exchange of goods or um, services. And so I think we need to create app, apps for this type of community. And we need to create systems, more systems around gift economy and trade economy. Those are my personal favorite. I really think that money is great and it should be opt-in. It should be like, uh, if you want to participate that you can, but it should be not mandatory as a system, um, for anyone just kind of emerging onto the planet, uh, have to be forced into that economic system. Maybe we can have uh, some different standards of, um, kind of minimal participation in a nation state that allow for a little bit more cre, again, it’s just creativity and, uh, diversity and, um, [00:34:00] so I do think that that could be controversial and be, and sound very new to people. But I also know that from studying history, that’s the only way we really progress is by like going through a period where we do something for a really long time and then we try something totally new. And um, and always the flaws of any system will, um, emerge and then we’ll have to solve them Just like the flaws of this current system. I see this as a solution to flaws in the current system.

[00:34:27] Um, but I do think that people will always participate in, uh, like in systems with money. Because it, it can be also fun and it can be also healthy. The only time I think it’s not healthy is when it’s unconsensual. So I really like to focus on consent when I talk about, um, climate science and about colonization and economics because so much about what we do in the exchange, the economic exchanges we have with one another, whether it’s, um, a gift, a trade, or through money, um, has to be really [00:35:00] consensual and well educated.

[00:35:01] Like a well-informed client knows that they’re actually consenting to something that ha has a carcinogen in it. For example, like maybe you are a company and you didn’t really research all the materials in your product, and so you are, uh, ignorant of the fact that you have this cancer causing chemical in your, um, candle that you’re selling to people.

[00:35:24] Um, but me, I’m someone who I like to take more responsibility for my company and my services than that. And we’re going to, you know, really look to the most cutting edge, uh, science and plus our intuition and just make sure that we’re not, um, so obsessed with the idea of innovation and, um, kind of cutting costs that we don’t forget what’s tried and true as healthy and again, sustainable.

[00:35:52] And, um, just I think that if you’re, if you’re, if you don’t know what climate science is, then you’re not really [00:36:00] even, um, doing business properly, uh, in the coming, you know, next 100 to 300 years. You’re just really doing something, um, for me that might be dangerous, risky, and irresponsible because, you are someone who basically is , climate science revolves around food or around soil, excuse me, water, and air. And so when you look at those systems, the, the mineral and soil systems, the water systems and the air systems, you have to respect those things as a business. And if you’re not respecting those things, and if you’re, you’re just coming into awareness of that, then it’s just time to continue to grow and challenge yourself and yeah, definitely people like myself, my colleagues, listen to podcasts like this because that’s how, uh, the future is going to move forward. Like I think that sometimes people get caught up in the idea that things aren’t progressing. And you know, things have always been one way. And so they’re always gonna be that way. But that’s so [00:37:00] not the case for, um, for me, where I see that things not only need to change and should change, but they need to change very rapidly. And, um, another way to put it that I’ve been saying lately is like, we need to slow down fast.

[00:37:16] So we, we we’re going really quickly toward goals that feel, um, basically misguided to me. And so like a misguided missile is like just going through the air so fast. And maybe if you’re on top of that missile, um, sitting there riding it, you’re thinking, oh my God. Like this is just totally, this is total doom. Um, this is totally just gonna hit something. It doesn’t, it’s, it’s not navigating itself well. But the thing is, is that we can reroute that energy, that missile like energy, and we need to reroute it and we need to slow it down. So that we can reintegrate with the natural cycles because the natural cycles literally, literally help keep us alive, help regenerate us, like if [00:38:00] time is what we’re here for. And if time is what is most valuable, which so many people feel and believe, then our economic systems should be ones, the most valuable economic systems that we could design or participate in would be the ones that give us the most time back to us.

Sustainable Communities Function on Trade

[00:38:15] Kenny Coogan: Yep. Time is definitely freedom. And, uh, to go back to your trade story or your example. Obviously we need money for utilities and housing usually. But, uh, I have a little homes, I have a one acre homestead, kind of like a hobby farm, and for many summers I was getting access to passion fruit, starfruit, and like really tiny hot chili peppers. So I would call up all the local farmers markets and I would bring them 20 pounds, 30 pounds, you know, once a week, every five days. And then when I really had like bumper crops, I would go to multiple markets and I would ask for like a [00:39:00] dollar a pound or $2 in store credit a pound. And they would always give me store credit. And of course I would use it up instantly because I don’t really want to eat a hundred passion fruits. But if I can turn that into lettuce and cabbage and broccoli, and peppers and potatoes that I can’t grow easily, it was just like such a win-win.

[00:39:24] Eloisa Lewis: Oh, totally. Yeah. I find that, I mean, once our basic needs are covered, I think that a lot of people would be fine working on trade economies and I think and gift economies and I find already my friends and I participated in it. And another really common, two really common ways to participate in a trade or gift economy that people forget about all the time is like a potluck or a clothing swap, and those are things we do all the time. So we can think about things like that and do that with other goods as well, or have like, you know, co-op centers. I would love to see more stores that are like thrift stores and that are like a [00:40:00] repair stores, and exchange stores, where things don’t just go to obsolescence or to the garbage, but actually are repairable or built to, uh, again be maintained for long periods. Passed down for generations or, or at least, um, held onto as long as possible.

[00:40:17] Kenny Coogan: Yeah, very good. I haven’t, I don’t feel like I’ve bought clothes in like 10 years, literally, because I just trade, swap. I look presentable, but I don’t need to be buying new clothes all the time. And of course, the fa, the fashion industry’s pretty, generally speaking, pretty bad for the sustainability.

[00:40:39] Eloisa Lewis: Oh yeah, they’re terrible. Um, and I think that that is an industry I would love to consult for. And I’ve, you know, I’ve spent time in London, like going back in 2018. I was living in London and I was going to all these fashion, like in sustainability expos and stuff like that.

[00:40:54] And basically what they were calling out for is for help. You know, they are definitely not, they don’t, many [00:41:00] of these industry leaders and experts are just barely getting the leadership into their corporations needed. And um, some of these people, again, they don’t have the rigorous permaculture expertise that, that I have and other cohorts have because they might have some sense of sustainable material sourcing, but then they don’t have the supply chain distribution, the, the local circular economy figured out, um, waste stream figured out, stuff like that, that are also important details. But definitely, yeah, like we can have, we can have, we have so much clothing on the planet. We might honestly have too much clothing on the planet. Like from what I’ve seen as well, traveling around in Africa, there’s just pallets and pallets of, um, clothing being dropped off from all over the world, donations. And I think that, um, I think that we have a lot, yeah, just a lot of clothing and fabric in the world and I want everyone to be clothed, but I do think that we just need to slow down for a moment. Everyone can be clothed. [00:42:00] Let’s slow down again, um, and reevaluate how are we clothing ourselves and um, can we do it better?

[00:42:06] And I love supporting instead of factory clothing, supporting artis artisanal craft makers who make real costume for a living, real, uh, kind of pomp and circumstance to remind us that we are in this beautiful space that we get to enjoy and share with one another. And as you know, whether you’re a spiritual or an artistic being, or just an expressive being, like it’s fun to express ourselves through our clothing and it doesn’t need to come from fast fashion or um, factories in order to do that. In fact, it’s gonna be so much better when it doesn’t. And it comes from, uh, a trusting, loving, caring hand that has really, that actually gets joy from doing that craft.

[00:42:51] Kenny Coogan: Yeah. And speaking of that, I was thinking when we’re talking about the trade economy, the potluck idea is great. Swapping clothes is great. If you grow too much of one [00:43:00] crop, you can swap it out is great. But I was also thinking the trade economy, you could offer your services or your vacational skills in exchange for not just money, but food, shelter, transportation.

[00:43:12] Eloisa Lewis: Yes, yes. And we need more apps like that. We need more communities like that.

[00:43:16] And the only ones that I know of that I can endorse from my own experience are like WOOF-ing, which is something I did early on in my twenties. So “worldwide organic farming network”. Um, so with WOOF-ing you can do, I think it’s like minimum four hours a day. So working on an organic farm and you get food and board. Um, and so that’s a trade. And then also Workaway is another one where you can do various skills and um, um, from pet sitting to carpentry, um, and li live at someone’s house in a, in like a foreign country or, or, or state or anywhere really, as long as you’re registered on their website. And it’s great cuz it’s review based too, so it’s safe so that you’re not just like walking into a random person’s home or business and you can [00:44:00] check their reviews and they can check yours and stuff. But absolutely, like I agree.

[00:44:04] And I think that also another interesting thing that would be cool would be if we had more apprenticeships where, um, instead of people going to like a whole university or school, actually just contacted the individual people they were working, they wanted to learn from directly. And I think already our economy is shifting that way with the online like mentorship and school marketplace where you can actually just find like, I wanna learn from that marketing guy, or I wanna learn from that musician, you know? And that is an emerging economy as well where we can just actually apprentice with our heroes directly instead of having to, um, go to a school to get a degree certification or something like that. And we can still learn the same skills.

The Cure for Climate Anxiety is Sustainable Community Development

[00:44:47] Kenny Coogan: So trying to stay positive. Do you, uh, think people need to change or will they change their lifestyle to adapt to a changing climate and economy? Are they gonna be forced, you know, in 20 [00:45:00] years?

[00:45:00] Eloisa Lewis: Oh, both. Both. I think there’s gonna be people who ignore the calls for change and who completely want to stick their head in the sand and pretend that nothing’s happening and everyone else is wrong.

[00:45:14] Um, and there’s gonna be people who are so like, totally understand what I’m saying and what you’re saying and what we’re saying, and they’re going to change their life tomorrow, or even as soon as this podcast ends, they’re gonna be like, I have to go do something right now. Because that’s really what also I find if anyone is experiencing any climate anxiety, the best remedy to climate anxiety is doing something good for the environment in your community.

[00:45:43] That is the ultimate remedy to that anxiety and that pessimism is to be like, well, if no one else is doing anything good in the world, at least here I am, digging my compost pile at my friend’s house, planting some seeds, exchanging some seeds, learning from a [00:46:00] local forager, what, whatever it is. And that is actually the actionable thing that’s gonna help.

[00:46:05] And totally, I do believe, um, I do believe that in this future a hundred percent. And I’m so excited for it to arrive and I just love that we get to help birth it.

[00:46:17] Kenny Coogan: To confirm your organization is called New Climate Culture.

[00:46:21] Eloisa Lewis: Yep.

[00:46:22] Kenny Coogan: And can you talk about how you are designing disaster resiliency in communities?

[00:46:28] Eloisa Lewis: Oh, totally. Yes. So, um, this March I’m gonna be speaking with NASA and FEMA about this as well. So, um, in Miami and, uh, at this, at, at this event called the Natural Disasters Expo in Miami. And so basically what we’re, what we’re doing with New Climate, what our, big, uh, core mission is, is to educate and implement designs in communities that are, um, basically fire resilient, flood [00:47:00] resilient, earthquake resilient, famine resilient.

[00:47:03] Like we’re thinking about all the disasters, all the natural disasters that could happen. Um, thinking about was it, was it last year when there was those power outages in Texas? Things like that. We are designing against that. We’re designing so that, like when disaster does come to strike your community, you will have the infrastructure in place that’s already put you off the grid.

[00:47:23] So you’re already, and you can be on the grid, off the grid. You could be in the middle of the city and not lose any power in a hurricane because you’ve had groups like ours come in and help design either your private residence, your corporate space, or you know, if it’s a, if it’s a public group, then we’ve got partnership with your city or your municipality, and we’re able to make sure that, yeah, like you’re not going to have flooding because we’re going to redirect what, what’s happening with your roads and your water.

[00:47:52] Because what’s, if you’re having these issues, basically, if your houses are burning down from power lines that are in the air in your forest, [00:48:00] if your house is flooding from, um, the ocean or the rivers around you, that is a design problem. That’s not a nature problem. That’s meaning you don’t under, that means either you or the person who built it didn’t understand how nature operates in that region, and it’s only through observing how nature is operating and responding to it and respecting it, that you’re going to have like a stable situation.

[00:48:24] Like, there’s just simply going to be as far as this lifestyle thing goes, and as far as disaster goes, there are, there already are people losing their homes over climate disasters and losing their securities and their investments. And so really we’re just here to export this information out, uh, as much as possible.

[00:48:43] We don’t have, I don’t see New Climate, m company, uh, New Climate Culture, having competition, I see us having partnerships. Because really we just want other people to benefit from what we’re teaching and doing. And, um, we’re happy to do it for them of course. But [00:49:00] ideally this, this information cannot spread quickly enough.

[00:49:04] Kenny Coogan: And with that, do you have some final words of encouragement or optimism that you wanna share with our listeners about maybe the next 10 years, the next hundred years?

[00:49:15] Eloisa Lewis: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I think that it’s really important, and I’ve said this before, but I’m gonna say it again. I haven’t said this in a few years, like. These, these structures around us, the living structures and the city structures, the, the, the village structures around us, the roads, things like that, the infrastructure around us. That is what defines our quality of life. Not anything else. Like we might blame ourselves for our struggles, our lack of access to food, our, um, our inability to provide for ourselves and find time and, and happiness in what we’re doing, but really these structures are set up to fail. So it’s totally natural that we would also feel overwhelmed and like our, our worlds are collapsing at times [00:50:00] when our very infrastructure truly is, is collapsing.

[00:50:03] So I just want to let everyone off the hook for any guilt, um, about what’s going on because guilt and anger are valid, um, and they’re within that emotional spectrum that we all participate in. But I think that really what’s going to get us into the future is an unwavering sense and commitment to love of life and that we were, we’re going to honor and love and respect life. And that’s going to be the anchor that, um, gets us through this storm.

[00:50:33] Kenny Coogan: Very good. I am reminded of a quote from Margaret Mead. She wrote, “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” So with that, we will end the podcast. Thank you so much, Eloisa, for speaking with us. Our conversation on climate change actions that we can do has been very insightful.

[00:50:59] We [00:51:00] thank you, the listener, for joining our podcast and encourage you to share it with your friends, colleagues, and family. To listen to more podcasts and to learn more, visit our website, www.MotherEarthNews.com/Podcast.

[00:51:16] And remember, no matter how brown your thumb is, you can always cultivate kindness.

Cultivate Kindness with More Mother Earth News

[00:51:24] John Moore: You’ve just heard our episode with Eloisa Lewis. You can reach us at Letters@MotherEarthNews.com with any comments or suggestions.

[00:51:35] Our podcast production team includes Carla Tilghman, Jessica Mitchell, John Moore, and Kenny Coogan.

[00:51:43] Music for this episode is “Travel Light” by Jason Shaw.

[00:51:48] This Mother Earth News and Friends podcast is a production of Ogden Publications. Learn more about at www.MotherEarthNews.com.

[00:51:58] Jessica Mitchell: We here at MOTHER [00:52:00] EARTH NEWS enjoy hosting in-person fairs, and you can see a list of upcoming locations at www.MotherEarthNewsFair.com.

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[00:52:34] John Moore: Until next time, don’t forget to love your Mother.

Meet Eloisa Lewis

Eloisa Lewis, a child of an illegal Mexican immigrant, has spent the past decade living in urban centers, on farms, homesteads, artist residencies, eco-villages, communes, schools, tiny houses, squats, and tents conducting research and helping build permaculture societies. She integrates the landscapes and people in a sustainable way.

Additional Resources

New Climate Culture

Our Podcast Team:

Carla Tilghman, Jessica Mitchell, John Moore, and Kenny Coogan
Music: “Travel Light” by Jason Shaw

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The Mother Earth News and Friends Podcasts are a production of Ogden Publications.

Ogden Publications strives to inspire “can-do communities,” which may have different locations, backgrounds, beliefs, and ideals. The viewpoints and lifestyles expressed within Ogden Publications articles are not necessarily shared by the editorial staff or policies but represent the authors’ unique experiences.